Buddy System

Pokeystar · September 2nd, 2012, 11:03 PM

I am still working my way through the beginings of ccr. Currently diving the unit within the limits of recreational diving and happy to do so as i tune skills and build experiance. On every dive i have an experianced diver from a pool of club members to accompany me and and we have discussed/drilled all the things buddies need to do.
I have however read at least two reports of fatalities recently where divers either descended without a buddy or ended a dive on a charter without being accompanied.
I understand that the role of the buddy is limited at very deep depths or that buddy seperstion with deco obligations means time to yourself, but i cant understand letting someone head for the surface charter or not unaccompanied let alone descending. Is solo in groups the actual practice as I head further down this route?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Mike Ferguson · September 3rd, 2012, 12:35 AM

ah the perennial solo diving issue. Basically the answer to your question for the majority of dives will be yes.

Anybody who dives past 40m or goes into extended decompression had better be prepared to spend some time on their own at some point. It's a fact of life that occasionally you lose your buddy for some reason or other. I would say that not far off 75% of the time I am effectively on my own if something goes badly wrong. A buddy at the edge of visibility or with his head stuck in a hole or looking the other way is not going to help you and may as well not be there. In addition put yourself in the shoes of the experienced CCR divers you are diving with, when they started to take you with them they were effectively solo diving. With all the best will in the world you weren't in a position to help if things went badly wrong for them.

Apart from that nobody is really going to rescue you past 40m. They might assist you in rescuing yourself by handing you additional gas etc if you're really unlucky and there's an issue with your own bailout gas. Other than that all they can really do is fire you up to the surface once you've stopped thrashing about. If they skipped an hour or more of deco to bring you all the way up they would be in big trouble as well.

If you plan and mentally prepare yourself for getting yourself home when things go wrong, having a buddy there when the shit hits the fan is an added bonus, but not something you should count on. At the end of the day the only person you should trust to get you home is you. No one else will have quite the same focus when it comes to keeping you alive.

If everyone you dive with has the same philosophy it inevitably becomes what you so accurately describe, solo diving in groups.

mike

Iain3 · September 3rd, 2012, 02:30 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike Ferguson)

If everyone you dive with has the same philosophy it inevitably becomes what you so accurately describe, solo diving in groups.

mike

You may find the "Team Diving" groups too, where a group of divers plan the dive and plan their bailout so they can work together. This is particularly for deeper dives when you can't carry the bailout required to get you to the surface safely, you work on the assumption that in a group of 3 no more than 2 of you will have to bail-out, so you share gas.

For example, on a deep dive I know that if I get to the shotline with my team it should be a nice comfortable bailout. If the team fail to reach the shotline we should be able to a nice comfortable open water bailout. If another team member has issues it will be tight.

If I lose my team but get to the shotline I should be able to skip deep stops and use shallow bail-out on the line to pad out the shallow stops making up for no deep ones. I may end up switching to 50% at 30-40m if I run out but I won't be there long so hopefully it will be ok.

If I lose the team and miss the shot I would send up my orange blob, then a yellow blob and hope they are spotted. I have enough gas to reach the surface alive but very likely bent. Hopefully someone will drop down the line and give me gas to sit out the stops.

I'm not sure whether I consider that solo or buddied. I'm using the team to facilitate dives I could only do alone as an alpinist, but I don't really follow team mentality in the water, more bunch mentality.

WFO · September 3rd, 2012, 09:35 AM

The team mentality would be really nice, but I don't really know enough people who have similar enough mindset and ambitions.

It would be great to have a close team where you could commit to training together and diving together. But the doctrine is pretty pointless if there's one dive your buddies can't make and you say "sod it" and solo it.

On that basis plan for self sufficiency and if you have someone else along you can bash out a bit of a 'plan' for assistance which can be given if needed.

I quite like diving solo, no worries about what anyone else is doing. Much calmer and more chilled out.

Peter L · September 3rd, 2012, 10:02 AM

Mr Pokey.....

Qn: Are you coming to CCR from deco procedures + or from a recreation route and what's your dive objectives?

The reason for asking is that as soon as you accept an overhead environment (deco, caves / wrecks) your in effect as others have stated near to solo always. The one thing that a recreational dive set-up (single air-source) gives you is that arse clenching nervousness that your only alternate air is swimming a few metres away and it tends to encourage buddy grouping. When options open up people tend to be less careful about proximity and more so they tend to loose each other in the process.

From a diving perspective 90% of my technical diving is solo, I plan for it, I prep for it I run bailout gas plans for it, that's the mindset you need to know that no matter what happens you are good for all that happens. If however I have a buddy and by some luck they are still there as I leave the bottom then all they have contributed is more gas and therefore more bottom time for my bail out plan but I went in assuming they would not be there and I am happy if they still are.

Garspeed · September 3rd, 2012, 12:16 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike Ferguson)

having a buddy there when the shit hits the fan is an added bonus, but not something you should count on

100% agreement on this one Mike. I will rarely dive solo, often in a team and sometimes in a buddy pair but either way, I dive with the expectation that I need to get home on my own. That's why I hump around 2 ali 80's, twin reels, blobs etc and whilst I would expect help from a team or buddy if I need it, I should be competent to make it on my own if required. At best an attentive buddy is there close by to help, at worst I can't make the shot and all else do so I am on my own anyway.

Cheers
Gar

matt · September 3rd, 2012, 01:11 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Pokeystar)

I understand that the role of the buddy is limited at very deep depths or that buddy seperstion with deco obligations means time to yourself, but i cant understand letting someone head for the surface charter or not unaccompanied let alone descending. Is solo in groups the actual practice as I head further down this route?

Not at all. I nearly always dive with a buddy and I find it more fun this way. I do think that you need to have a lot of self sufficiency about you and that you ought to know how to look after yourself - but there is no substitute for having someone you trust in the water with you.

I've made a few deep dives solo (two times over 100m - one with only me in the water) and it was OK - but it's more fun with a buddy.

Some folks dive solo all the time - and I'm fine with that too.

Matt.

Mike Ward · September 3rd, 2012, 01:29 PM

My 2p, an awful lot of OC diving is 'solo in a group' - think the crocodile behind the divemaster somewhere warm with blue-water.

At least tech/CCR divers are honest enough to admit that's what they're doing when they're not actually solo and are usually sufficiently sorted to deal with it.

***Clare*** · September 3rd, 2012, 06:01 PM

Completely different stance here.

Team diving 100 per cent of time. Been in water alone for about 10 minutes in 1300 plus dives. Loss of team mate is a dive ending failure and to be honest with my regular team doesn't happen beyond the "where's their light...oh there it is" moment.

Far too often the phrase "if you can't do the dive alone you shouldn't do it" is used. This is a pointless statement. To team dive I have to be good enough to do my own dive AND help my buddy. He had to be that good too. True team divers are not burdens to each other - instead two strong divers working together become stronger still.

The most important piece of equipment my buddy brings along is another brain and another dose of common sense. All the redundant kit in the world doesn't bring that. They bring a longer reach and more leverage too which can be helpful

I suffered a reaction to hydrogen sulphide on a cave dive a few years ago. The constant vomiting and dizziness left me incapacitated and barely able to swim let alone navigate what was a complex route. Lord knows what I would have done with a 60 odd minute exit without guidance. As it was, we fled the cave leaving all markers and jumps in place but still we used reserve has due to extended exit time - and I was assisted wherever the cave was big enough to fit two divers side by side. On my own I doubt I would have made it out - although who knows.

Those who claim that the buddy system is flawed, or unnecessary, I used to believe had a right to choose how to behave themselves, taking their own risks in the knowledge of what they were doing. Then I met with the partner of a diver who had died when the worst, most skill challenged, buddy in the world could have potentially saved them. Instead they died alone on an easy dive, tangled in line. Their partner, their family and those who dealt with the rescue had to live with that knowledge. That was no dive where logistics meant that to push the boundaries of exploration only one diver could be supported. That was a dive where ascending alone was just seen as an acceptable choice so as not to inconvenience anyone. The result impacts on many lives to this day.

I am not arguing for policing or outlawing solo diving. I still believe in personal responsibility. But for goodness sake, can we stop the 'you can't buddy dive in a cave or in a deco dive' mentality. If YOU can't buddy dive then get better skills. If your BUDDY can't (or won't) then choose who you dive with more carefully.

**Mark Chase** · September 3rd, 2012, 06:41 PM

I often dive solo and I often dive in a two or three.

A good buddy is great to have. A bad buddy is a liability

Good buddies are hard to find

In many ways I am safer solo. I focus totally on me without the distraction of looking out for my buddy and I manage my dive to my comfort zone not my buddies.

With a buddy I have the advantage if I become incapacitated he can help. This advantage has to be balanced against the risk of a bad buddy.

September 2nd, 2012, 11:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
Pokeystar New Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 42 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Buddy System I am still working my way through the beginings of ccr. Currently diving the unit within the limits of recreational diving and happy to do so as i tune skills and build experiance. On every dive i have an experianced diver from a pool of club members to accompany me and and we have discussed/drilled all the things buddies need to do. I have however read at least two reports of fatalities recently where divers either descended without a buddy or ended a dive on a charter without being accompanied. I understand that the role of the buddy is limited at very deep depths or that buddy seperstion with deco obligations means time to yourself, but i cant understand letting someone head for the surface charter or not unaccompanied let alone descending. Is solo in groups the actual practice as I head further down this route? Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
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September 3rd, 2012, 12:35 AM	#2 (permalink)
Mike Ferguson WTF is that? Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Aberdeenshire Posts: 248 Thanks: 11 Thanked 114 Times in 43 Posts	ah the perennial solo diving issue. Basically the answer to your question for the majority of dives will be yes. Anybody who dives past 40m or goes into extended decompression had better be prepared to spend some time on their own at some point. It's a fact of life that occasionally you lose your buddy for some reason or other. I would say that not far off 75% of the time I am effectively on my own if something goes badly wrong. A buddy at the edge of visibility or with his head stuck in a hole or looking the other way is not going to help you and may as well not be there. In addition put yourself in the shoes of the experienced CCR divers you are diving with, when they started to take you with them they were effectively solo diving. With all the best will in the world you weren't in a position to help if things went badly wrong for them. Apart from that nobody is really going to rescue you past 40m. They might assist you in rescuing yourself by handing you additional gas etc if you're really unlucky and there's an issue with your own bailout gas. Other than that all they can really do is fire you up to the surface once you've stopped thrashing about. If they skipped an hour or more of deco to bring you all the way up they would be in big trouble as well. If you plan and mentally prepare yourself for getting yourself home when things go wrong, having a buddy there when the shit hits the fan is an added bonus, but not something you should count on. At the end of the day the only person you should trust to get you home is you. No one else will have quite the same focus when it comes to keeping you alive. If everyone you dive with has the same philosophy it inevitably becomes what you so accurately describe, solo diving in groups. mike
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September 3rd, 2012, 02:30 AM	#3 (permalink)
Iain3 Big Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Sydney Posts: 242 Thanks: 15 Thanked 24 Times in 12 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike Ferguson) If everyone you dive with has the same philosophy it inevitably becomes what you so accurately describe, solo diving in groups. mike You may find the "Team Diving" groups too, where a group of divers plan the dive and plan their bailout so they can work together. This is particularly for deeper dives when you can't carry the bailout required to get you to the surface safely, you work on the assumption that in a group of 3 no more than 2 of you will have to bail-out, so you share gas. For example, on a deep dive I know that if I get to the shotline with my team it should be a nice comfortable bailout. If the team fail to reach the shotline we should be able to a nice comfortable open water bailout. If another team member has issues it will be tight. If I lose my team but get to the shotline I should be able to skip deep stops and use shallow bail-out on the line to pad out the shallow stops making up for no deep ones. I may end up switching to 50% at 30-40m if I run out but I won't be there long so hopefully it will be ok. If I lose the team and miss the shot I would send up my orange blob, then a yellow blob and hope they are spotted. I have enough gas to reach the surface alive but very likely bent. Hopefully someone will drop down the line and give me gas to sit out the stops. I'm not sure whether I consider that solo or buddied. I'm using the team to facilitate dives I could only do alone as an alpinist, but I don't really follow team mentality in the water, more bunch mentality.
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September 3rd, 2012, 09:35 AM	#4 (permalink)
WFO New Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Yorkshire, UK Posts: 240 Thanks: 27 Thanked 31 Times in 22 Posts	The team mentality would be really nice, but I don't really know enough people who have similar enough mindset and ambitions. It would be great to have a close team where you could commit to training together and diving together. But the doctrine is pretty pointless if there's one dive your buddies can't make and you say "sod it" and solo it. On that basis plan for self sufficiency and if you have someone else along you can bash out a bit of a 'plan' for assistance which can be given if needed. I quite like diving solo, no worries about what anyone else is doing. Much calmer and more chilled out.
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September 3rd, 2012, 10:02 AM	#5 (permalink)
Peter L New Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: London Posts: 299 Thanks: 12 Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts	Mr Pokey..... Qn: Are you coming to CCR from deco procedures + or from a recreation route and what's your dive objectives? The reason for asking is that as soon as you accept an overhead environment (deco, caves / wrecks) your in effect as others have stated near to solo always. The one thing that a recreational dive set-up (single air-source) gives you is that arse clenching nervousness that your only alternate air is swimming a few metres away and it tends to encourage buddy grouping. When options open up people tend to be less careful about proximity and more so they tend to loose each other in the process. From a diving perspective 90% of my technical diving is solo, I plan for it, I prep for it I run bailout gas plans for it, that's the mindset you need to know that no matter what happens you are good for all that happens. If however I have a buddy and by some luck they are still there as I leave the bottom then all they have contributed is more gas and therefore more bottom time for my bail out plan but I went in assuming they would not be there and I am happy if they still are.
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September 3rd, 2012, 12:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
Garspeed Wreck Ferret in training Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Aberdeen, Scotland Posts: 199 Thanks: 38 Thanked 26 Times in 14 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike Ferguson) having a buddy there when the shit hits the fan is an added bonus, but not something you should count on 100% agreement on this one Mike. I will rarely dive solo, often in a team and sometimes in a buddy pair but either way, I dive with the expectation that I need to get home on my own. That's why I hump around 2 ali 80's, twin reels, blobs etc and whilst I would expect help from a team or buddy if I need it, I should be competent to make it on my own if required. At best an attentive buddy is there close by to help, at worst I can't make the shot and all else do so I am on my own anyway. Cheers Gar __________________ Wreck Ferret in training
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September 3rd, 2012, 01:11 PM	#7 (permalink)
matt New Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: London Posts: 1,541 Thanks: 168 Thanked 74 Times in 60 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by Pokeystar) I understand that the role of the buddy is limited at very deep depths or that buddy seperstion with deco obligations means time to yourself, but i cant understand letting someone head for the surface charter or not unaccompanied let alone descending. Is solo in groups the actual practice as I head further down this route? Not at all. I nearly always dive with a buddy and I find it more fun this way. I do think that you need to have a lot of self sufficiency about you and that you ought to know how to look after yourself - but there is no substitute for having someone you trust in the water with you. I've made a few deep dives solo (two times over 100m - one with only me in the water) and it was OK - but it's more fun with a buddy. Some folks dive solo all the time - and I'm fine with that too. Matt.
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September 3rd, 2012, 01:29 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mike Ward New Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 3 Posts	My 2p, an awful lot of OC diving is 'solo in a group' - think the crocodile behind the divemaster somewhere warm with blue-water. At least tech/CCR divers are honest enough to admit that's what they're doing when they're not actually solo and are usually sufficiently sorted to deal with it.
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September 3rd, 2012, 06:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
*Clare* Retired - going diving Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 457 Thanks: 74 Thanked 178 Times in 39 Posts	Completely different stance here. Team diving 100 per cent of time. Been in water alone for about 10 minutes in 1300 plus dives. Loss of team mate is a dive ending failure and to be honest with my regular team doesn't happen beyond the "where's their light...oh there it is" moment. Far too often the phrase "if you can't do the dive alone you shouldn't do it" is used. This is a pointless statement. To team dive I have to be good enough to do my own dive AND help my buddy. He had to be that good too. True team divers are not burdens to each other - instead two strong divers working together become stronger still. The most important piece of equipment my buddy brings along is another brain and another dose of common sense. All the redundant kit in the world doesn't bring that. They bring a longer reach and more leverage too which can be helpful I suffered a reaction to hydrogen sulphide on a cave dive a few years ago. The constant vomiting and dizziness left me incapacitated and barely able to swim let alone navigate what was a complex route. Lord knows what I would have done with a 60 odd minute exit without guidance. As it was, we fled the cave leaving all markers and jumps in place but still we used reserve has due to extended exit time - and I was assisted wherever the cave was big enough to fit two divers side by side. On my own I doubt I would have made it out - although who knows. Those who claim that the buddy system is flawed, or unnecessary, I used to believe had a right to choose how to behave themselves, taking their own risks in the knowledge of what they were doing. Then I met with the partner of a diver who had died when the worst, most skill challenged, buddy in the world could have potentially saved them. Instead they died alone on an easy dive, tangled in line. Their partner, their family and those who dealt with the rescue had to live with that knowledge. That was no dive where logistics meant that to push the boundaries of exploration only one diver could be supported. That was a dive where ascending alone was just seen as an acceptable choice so as not to inconvenience anyone. The result impacts on many lives to this day. I am not arguing for policing or outlawing solo diving. I still believe in personal responsibility. But for goodness sake, can we stop the 'you can't buddy dive in a cave or in a deco dive' mentality. If YOU can't buddy dive then get better skills. If your BUDDY can't (or won't) then choose who you dive with more carefully. __________________ Clare . "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions....Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great." Interested in dive training? Always happy to chat/answer questions so get in touch via PM or visit www.techdiver.co.uk
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September 3rd, 2012, 06:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
Mark Chase ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Kent England Posts: 483 Thanks: 62 Thanked 163 Times in 67 Posts	I often dive solo and I often dive in a two or three. A good buddy is great to have. A bad buddy is a liability Good buddies are hard to find In many ways I am safer solo. I focus totally on me without the distraction of looking out for my buddy and I manage my dive to my comfort zone not my buddies. With a buddy I have the advantage if I become incapacitated he can help. This advantage has to be balanced against the risk of a bad buddy.
(Offline)