Optocon, is it worth upgrading? - Page 6

Ben Field · August 29th, 2012, 09:34 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by tufty)

coz the spg's would ruin an otherwise clean rig :D

At least I know your not serious anymore

Pat413 · February 27th, 2013, 06:01 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Soggyfox)

One thing i have noticed is the level of angst raged against VR by those who don't dive or have ever dived their units (not their computers). It seems theres a lot of people about who don't own VR units that have a lot of problems with VR Units. I get the distinct impression its cool to hate VR and blast their units at every chance. Funnily enough when you point out failings in the units they dive their backs get up pretty quick.

Same impression to me. Lot's of people called me crazy when I show interest in Sentinel and Ouroboros. Now I'm proud owner of Boris and more than happy.

Any rig has it's strenght and weakness. Of course you need to take care ouf your rig doesn't matter if a VR unit, JJ, MEG or whatever. I have even see the MEG of my buddy failed with stuck open solenoid which he doesn't realized directly due to task overload in an exercise dive. This is one of the reasons I dive VR unit. And no I don't sell them or be related to them in any way, just regular customer.

YobazEfendi · March 5th, 2013, 10:16 AM

I thought there was a law stating that products have to be supported for a certain amount of years after purchas, spare parts wise.

Jonas Pavletic · March 31st, 2013, 10:55 PM

There is a law requiring the supplier to provide spare parts, but there is no law that actually dictate the price of said spare part.

Actually, I had the very same thoughts that has been presented in this thread when my old SPGs failed after several years of spotless performance. When VR told me that I had to pay for the Optocon upgrade, my first reaction was "WTF!".

After a couple of seconds of thinking, I realized that I actually got a better unit after the upgrade. No more fuss with the TPM that had been pesting me for months due to bad connection at assembly, installing the canister is a dream now that the TPM-cable is history.

I still had to pay for the upgrade though, but on the other hand VR didn't charge me for the 200h service. All in all, I got the upgrade for about half the list price which is an awesome deal compared to demanding and paying for end-of-life-spare-parts. In my view, this is a solution that everyone(?) gain from. VR can minimize their spare part supply and use only one type of SPGs while at the same time getting rid of the quality problems of the old SPG solution from the entire Sentinel population. The users get units that work a lot better than the early solution which in turn lead to a bigger market for second hand units.

Is half the list price good enough when it comes to VR "sponsoring" the replacement? It could surely be even less expensive for the end customer, but as I said I'm more than happy about the new functionality and simplified assembly process of my updated unit.

The only sad part that prevent me from being 100% happy is the fact that I had problems with the HP readings during the last dive. Had to switch both SPGs to offboard mode to get rid of the alarms, but I could still perform the +3hrs of cave dive anyway.

Back at home the readings were working again, currently waiting for problem to reappear before trying out the solution promptly suggested by VR tech support. So far, over the +4 years since I got the unit only one dive missed due to sloppy unit assembly (lung popped at water entry) and one dive missed (or actually delayed) due to one of the MAV-buttons falling off on dry-land causing a need to get out off the water, finding the button, replace and get going again. Both problems fully caused by poor experience that most likely create problems regardless of unit used.

The good thing about popping the lung and completely flooding the unit is that I know for a fact that it works like a dream after getting all the water out of the unit

I obviously had to try that when I got the opportunity *smile*

All in all:
I know that I've been lucky with my unit despite being one of the early ones.
I still love the bells and whistles since they are what actually made me go for a Sentinel in the first place. When whistle performance is poor (or non-existant) I'm obviously annoyed, but at least I can go diving anyway after disabling the corresponding alarm. When all the alarms are disabled I'm still down to the performance of how some other units on the market work on their best day. Annoying as hell when bells that I paid good money for don't live up to expectations, but still perfectly diveable...

/Jonas

Chris Brown · April 1st, 2013, 05:44 AM

After spending a few days diving my Sentinel with Greg Such again, I am finally starting to 'get' this unit and more importantly, how I need to approach it for it to be reliable.

First off, I needed to accept it was no AP Inspo Toyota Hilux. Its a high end, complex piece of kit with ADDITIONAL Life support systems and technology that isnt found on other units. Theres a C02 sensor. It needs calibrating and maintaining. Theres an optocon system. You have to understand how to service & maintain the fiber optic cable which will give you grief otherwise. Theres a more complex power set up with batteries in the P02 module, TPM and HP senders in addition to the main head power. They all need to be checked and replaced if low. Theres a complex life support management system that gives you fantastic information, but you need to be able to access it and understand it for it to be of benefit. I guess what Im saying is that I cant just chuck it in the back of the truck and expect it to power up and pass all the predive checks when I get to the dock if I havent taken the time to maintain it.

Its taken a mindset shift in my approach to diving it. Its an Expedition rig afterall, so frequent replacement / maintenance / inspection of critical parts should be expected. I should also expect to get alarms and issues with batteries and comms. Staying on top of it and preventative maintenance are key. So if its an expedition rig, why the 2ltr tanks?? Its supposed to have offboard gas plugged in before you jump. The electronics simply prompt low HP pressure and then prompt you for offboard. No biggie, just open the correct valve and feed that 02 straight to the head and manual block. (or dil to ADV / BOV etc). Previously my mindset was to put 3ltr tanks on my Evo and be done with it.

The benefit of all this is the Life Support information. If you take the time to ensure its all built correctly and batteries are good, then you can enjoy the feeling that comes with knowing that theres no CO2 being detected and that your stack usage is in line with your 02 consumption and that your cells are outputting correctly. I was also under utilizing the HUD and Isec display too. I now use them far more than before, taking my p02 checks from the Isec to cross reference the HUD and primary.

If you are one of those divers that gets easily frustrated when gear doesnt work as its supposed to (me), then the Sentinel will frustrate you or even drive you crazy. Take the time to appreciate why its the way it is and you might start to love it

However, I agree that parts failing from the factory is not good. For me it was HP senders. It was probably just low batteries, but I didnt have a good enough understanding of them at the time. Overall, I think the upgrade is worth it, but they do require care and attention. Dont let the senders flop around and loosen or break the cable. Zip tie them down!

Im looking forward to the next 100 hours to see what happens and whether Ive changed my mind or can continue to improve my experience with it.

jptaylor9 · April 1st, 2013, 09:24 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chris at Silent World)

First off, I needed to accept it was no AP Inspo Toyota Hilux. Its a high end, complex piece of kit ...

I never got comfortable on the Sentinel even after over 150 hrs of diving. Once all the pressure sensors where replaced (depth & HP) the unit was reliable, apart from the scrubber base became a bitch to remove. I went back to the AP Inspo Toyota Hilux & I'm much happier now & enjoying diving again (the Sentinel simply sucked all the fun out!)

The HP hose on my Inspo failed when preparing my Inspo for my last dive, no biggie, swapped the diluent HP hose/gauge over to the O2 & blanked off the HP port on the diluent 1st stage & went diving... that for me is the difference.

Comment as ex-Sentinel diver (i.e. I have owned & dived unit!!)

Chris Brown · April 1st, 2013, 01:52 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by jptaylor9)

I never got comfortable on the Sentinel even after over 150 hrs of diving. Once all the pressure sensors where replaced (depth & HP) the unit was reliable, apart from the scrubber base became a bitch to remove. I went back to the AP Inspo Toyota Hilux & I'm much happier now & enjoying diving again (the Sentinel simply sucked all the fun out!)

The HP hose on my Inspo failed when preparing my Inspo for my last dive, no biggie, swapped the diluent HP hose/gauge over to the O2 & blanked off the HP port on the diluent 1st stage & went diving... that for me is the difference.

Comment as ex-Sentinel diver (i.e. I have owned & dived unit!!)

I agree. The AP line is a really reliable jump in and dive unit.

I guess its horses for courses. Some expedition level divers want more monitoring and life support info.

What were the issues with the HP sensors? Are you talking about early stuff or optocon?

jptaylor9 · April 1st, 2013, 04:23 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chris at Silent World)

I guess its horses for courses. Some expedition level divers want more monitoring and life support info.

Done 120m+ & 4hr run times on an Inspo, in fact I dived in deeper & longer than any dive on my Sentinel. Didn't use off-board O2, so 95m on a 2L of O2 didn't feel safe, but dive was completed with plenty left!!

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chris at Silent World)

What were the issues with the HP sensors? Are you talking about early stuff or optocon?

Hardwired HP sensors, the original ones with a small piece of circuit board in sensor. Later ones had this removed & processing done on motherboard.

The 2L cylinders are more of a logistics issue on trips I've done where we're on a boat for a week & have to take ALL gas (except Air) we need for a week.

Jonas Pavletic · April 1st, 2013, 08:15 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by jptaylor9)

The 2L cylinders are more of a logistics issue on trips I've done where we're on a boat for a week & have to take ALL gas (except Air) we need for a week.

I guess the 3 liter tanks on the Inspo swiftly solved the problem of gas not lasting a week. Those 2 liter tanks are really a PITA on such long trips

I actually do miss out on bigger O2-tanks when doing long multilevel cave dives, especially when you don't really know the exact profile ahead of time. Have had to turn dives on a couple of occasions due to not bringing enough O2 in the first place. Since I don't like the idea of swimming around with a HOT O2 BO tank during the entire dive I guess I will have to bring an extra small tank next time...

jptaylor9 · April 1st, 2013, 09:38 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jonas Pavletic)

I guess the 3 liter tanks on the Inspo swiftly solved the problem of gas not lasting a week. Those 2 liter tanks are really a PITA on such long trips

Pump the 3L's up to 240bar

and you'll get 3 good/long dives out of it. A 2L Sentinel/Evo+ drops 80bar over a dive so not really enough for a second dive. Used to equalise with a full cylinder get ~140bar in each so getting 3 dives out of 2 cylinders!

Designing cylinders to match scrubber capacity doesn't take account of logistic issue

August 29th, 2012, 09:34 AM	#51
Ben Field New Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 234 Thanks: 23 Thanked 77 Times in 32 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by tufty) coz the spg's would ruin an otherwise clean rig :D At least I know your not serious anymore
(Online)

February 27th, 2013, 06:01 PM	#52 (permalink)
Pat413 New Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Belgium Posts: 19 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Quote: (Originally Posted by Soggyfox) One thing i have noticed is the level of angst raged against VR by those who don't dive or have ever dived their units (not their computers). It seems theres a lot of people about who don't own VR units that have a lot of problems with VR Units. I get the distinct impression its cool to hate VR and blast their units at every chance. Funnily enough when you point out failings in the units they dive their backs get up pretty quick. Same impression to me. Lot's of people called me crazy when I show interest in Sentinel and Ouroboros. Now I'm proud owner of Boris and more than happy. Any rig has it's strenght and weakness. Of course you need to take care ouf your rig doesn't matter if a VR unit, JJ, MEG or whatever. I have even see the MEG of my buddy failed with stuck open solenoid which he doesn't realized directly due to task overload in an exercise dive. This is one of the reasons I dive VR unit. And no I don't sell them or be related to them in any way, just regular customer.
(Online)

March 5th, 2013, 10:16 AM	#53 (permalink)
YobazEfendi New Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: TR Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I thought there was a law stating that products have to be supported for a certain amount of years after purchas, spare parts wise.
(Offline)

March 31st, 2013, 10:55 PM	#54 (permalink)
Jonas Pavletic Mine Explorer Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Vasteras, Sweden Posts: 12 Thanks: 9 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	There is a law requiring the supplier to provide spare parts, but there is no law that actually dictate the price of said spare part. Actually, I had the very same thoughts that has been presented in this thread when my old SPGs failed after several years of spotless performance. When VR told me that I had to pay for the Optocon upgrade, my first reaction was "WTF!". After a couple of seconds of thinking, I realized that I actually got a better unit after the upgrade. No more fuss with the TPM that had been pesting me for months due to bad connection at assembly, installing the canister is a dream now that the TPM-cable is history. I still had to pay for the upgrade though, but on the other hand VR didn't charge me for the 200h service. All in all, I got the upgrade for about half the list price which is an awesome deal compared to demanding and paying for end-of-life-spare-parts. In my view, this is a solution that everyone(?) gain from. VR can minimize their spare part supply and use only one type of SPGs while at the same time getting rid of the quality problems of the old SPG solution from the entire Sentinel population. The users get units that work a lot better than the early solution which in turn lead to a bigger market for second hand units. Is half the list price good enough when it comes to VR "sponsoring" the replacement? It could surely be even less expensive for the end customer, but as I said I'm more than happy about the new functionality and simplified assembly process of my updated unit. The only sad part that prevent me from being 100% happy is the fact that I had problems with the HP readings during the last dive. Had to switch both SPGs to offboard mode to get rid of the alarms, but I could still perform the +3hrs of cave dive anyway. Back at home the readings were working again, currently waiting for problem to reappear before trying out the solution promptly suggested by VR tech support. So far, over the +4 years since I got the unit only one dive missed due to sloppy unit assembly (lung popped at water entry) and one dive missed (or actually delayed) due to one of the MAV-buttons falling off on dry-land causing a need to get out off the water, finding the button, replace and get going again. Both problems fully caused by poor experience that most likely create problems regardless of unit used. The good thing about popping the lung and completely flooding the unit is that I know for a fact that it works like a dream after getting all the water out of the unit I obviously had to try that when I got the opportunity smile All in all: I know that I've been lucky with my unit despite being one of the early ones. I still love the bells and whistles since they are what actually made me go for a Sentinel in the first place. When whistle performance is poor (or non-existant) I'm obviously annoyed, but at least I can go diving anyway after disabling the corresponding alarm. When all the alarms are disabled I'm still down to the performance of how some other units on the market work on their best day. Annoying as hell when bells that I paid good money for don't live up to expectations, but still perfectly diveable... /Jonas
(Offline)

April 1st, 2013, 05:44 AM	#55 (permalink)
Chris Brown New Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Key Largo Posts: 70 Thanks: 40 Thanked 28 Times in 18 Posts	After spending a few days diving my Sentinel with Greg Such again, I am finally starting to 'get' this unit and more importantly, how I need to approach it for it to be reliable. First off, I needed to accept it was no AP Inspo Toyota Hilux. Its a high end, complex piece of kit with ADDITIONAL Life support systems and technology that isnt found on other units. Theres a C02 sensor. It needs calibrating and maintaining. Theres an optocon system. You have to understand how to service & maintain the fiber optic cable which will give you grief otherwise. Theres a more complex power set up with batteries in the P02 module, TPM and HP senders in addition to the main head power. They all need to be checked and replaced if low. Theres a complex life support management system that gives you fantastic information, but you need to be able to access it and understand it for it to be of benefit. I guess what Im saying is that I cant just chuck it in the back of the truck and expect it to power up and pass all the predive checks when I get to the dock if I havent taken the time to maintain it. Its taken a mindset shift in my approach to diving it. Its an Expedition rig afterall, so frequent replacement / maintenance / inspection of critical parts should be expected. I should also expect to get alarms and issues with batteries and comms. Staying on top of it and preventative maintenance are key. So if its an expedition rig, why the 2ltr tanks?? Its supposed to have offboard gas plugged in before you jump. The electronics simply prompt low HP pressure and then prompt you for offboard. No biggie, just open the correct valve and feed that 02 straight to the head and manual block. (or dil to ADV / BOV etc). Previously my mindset was to put 3ltr tanks on my Evo and be done with it. The benefit of all this is the Life Support information. If you take the time to ensure its all built correctly and batteries are good, then you can enjoy the feeling that comes with knowing that theres no CO2 being detected and that your stack usage is in line with your 02 consumption and that your cells are outputting correctly. I was also under utilizing the HUD and Isec display too. I now use them far more than before, taking my p02 checks from the Isec to cross reference the HUD and primary. If you are one of those divers that gets easily frustrated when gear doesnt work as its supposed to (me), then the Sentinel will frustrate you or even drive you crazy. Take the time to appreciate why its the way it is and you might start to love it However, I agree that parts failing from the factory is not good. For me it was HP senders. It was probably just low batteries, but I didnt have a good enough understanding of them at the time. Overall, I think the upgrade is worth it, but they do require care and attention. Dont let the senders flop around and loosen or break the cable. Zip tie them down! Im looking forward to the next 100 hours to see what happens and whether Ive changed my mind or can continue to improve my experience with it.
(Offline)

April 1st, 2013, 09:24 AM	#56 (permalink)
jptaylor9 Jon Taylor Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: SE London, UK Posts: 122 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 27 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by Chris at Silent World) First off, I needed to accept it was no AP Inspo Toyota Hilux. Its a high end, complex piece of kit ... I never got comfortable on the Sentinel even after over 150 hrs of diving. Once all the pressure sensors where replaced (depth & HP) the unit was reliable, apart from the scrubber base became a bitch to remove. I went back to the AP Inspo Toyota Hilux & I'm much happier now & enjoying diving again (the Sentinel simply sucked all the fun out!) The HP hose on my Inspo failed when preparing my Inspo for my last dive, no biggie, swapped the diluent HP hose/gauge over to the O2 & blanked off the HP port on the diluent 1st stage & went diving... that for me is the difference. Comment as ex-Sentinel diver (i.e. I have owned & dived unit!!)
(Online)

April 1st, 2013, 01:52 PM	#57 (permalink)
Chris Brown New Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Key Largo Posts: 70 Thanks: 40 Thanked 28 Times in 18 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by jptaylor9) I never got comfortable on the Sentinel even after over 150 hrs of diving. Once all the pressure sensors where replaced (depth & HP) the unit was reliable, apart from the scrubber base became a bitch to remove. I went back to the AP Inspo Toyota Hilux & I'm much happier now & enjoying diving again (the Sentinel simply sucked all the fun out!) The HP hose on my Inspo failed when preparing my Inspo for my last dive, no biggie, swapped the diluent HP hose/gauge over to the O2 & blanked off the HP port on the diluent 1st stage & went diving... that for me is the difference. Comment as ex-Sentinel diver (i.e. I have owned & dived unit!!) I agree. The AP line is a really reliable jump in and dive unit. I guess its horses for courses. Some expedition level divers want more monitoring and life support info. What were the issues with the HP sensors? Are you talking about early stuff or optocon?
(Offline)

April 1st, 2013, 04:23 PM	#58 (permalink)
jptaylor9 Jon Taylor Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: SE London, UK Posts: 122 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 27 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by Chris at Silent World) I guess its horses for courses. Some expedition level divers want more monitoring and life support info. Done 120m+ & 4hr run times on an Inspo, in fact I dived in deeper & longer than any dive on my Sentinel. Didn't use off-board O2, so 95m on a 2L of O2 didn't feel safe, but dive was completed with plenty left!! Quote: (Originally Posted by Chris at Silent World) What were the issues with the HP sensors? Are you talking about early stuff or optocon? Hardwired HP sensors, the original ones with a small piece of circuit board in sensor. Later ones had this removed & processing done on motherboard. The 2L cylinders are more of a logistics issue on trips I've done where we're on a boat for a week & have to take ALL gas (except Air) we need for a week.
(Online)

April 1st, 2013, 08:15 PM	#59 (permalink)
Jonas Pavletic Mine Explorer Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Vasteras, Sweden Posts: 12 Thanks: 9 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by jptaylor9) The 2L cylinders are more of a logistics issue on trips I've done where we're on a boat for a week & have to take ALL gas (except Air) we need for a week. I guess the 3 liter tanks on the Inspo swiftly solved the problem of gas not lasting a week. Those 2 liter tanks are really a PITA on such long trips I actually do miss out on bigger O2-tanks when doing long multilevel cave dives, especially when you don't really know the exact profile ahead of time. Have had to turn dives on a couple of occasions due to not bringing enough O2 in the first place. Since I don't like the idea of swimming around with a HOT O2 BO tank during the entire dive I guess I will have to bring an extra small tank next time...
(Offline)

April 1st, 2013, 09:38 PM	#60 (permalink)
jptaylor9 Jon Taylor Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: SE London, UK Posts: 122 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 27 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by Jonas Pavletic) I guess the 3 liter tanks on the Inspo swiftly solved the problem of gas not lasting a week. Those 2 liter tanks are really a PITA on such long trips Pump the 3L's up to 240bar and you'll get 3 good/long dives out of it. A 2L Sentinel/Evo+ drops 80bar over a dive so not really enough for a second dive. Used to equalise with a full cylinder get ~140bar in each so getting 3 dives out of 2 cylinders! Designing cylinders to match scrubber capacity doesn't take account of logistic issue
(Online)