Experience needed before CCR - Page 11

Robert · August 10th, 2012, 08:11 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bingo.

Once the tools are each mastered, bring the right one out for the days task at hand.

OC = Simple and task load lowering. A pleasure to dive in the common caves that most of us really dive most of the time. Did three weeks in Florida last year, dove every day, dove OC, and the workload reduction all in all was well worth the change.

But with that said, CCR proficiency for the big dives needs to be obtained with loads of experience on small dives, so.... this season: It's CC to the caves. Not because it's needed in 2012, it's because of 2014.

Dave

.

"

Dave

.

Agree with this about 1000%, also with a later comment Dave made that you need to get up to the same level with CCR & OC, then choose the correct tool for the job. At the end of the day CCR/OC backmount/OC sidemount/OC Single/stages etc is a toolkit and you need to use what works on a given day.

There's also the issue of planning a couple of years in advance - this is something that I've really found pays off in the long run,

Thanks,
Robert

lizardland · August 10th, 2012, 12:21 PM

My twinset is my air bank so I'd have it anyway. Selling my backplate and wing wouldnt raise enough money to compensate for the stupid questions from an ad on YD.

I swap all the time, I've even had people comment they dont believe I own a rebreather as they've never seen me use it

I've never really found swapping between the two much of a challenge but then I might set the bar low :D

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Venomguy · August 10th, 2012, 09:28 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert)

Agree with this about 1000%, also with a later comment Dave made that you need to get up to the same level with CCR & OC, then choose the correct tool for the job. At the end of the day CCR/OC backmount/OC sidemount/OC Single/stages etc is a toolkit and you need to use what works on a given day.

There's also the issue of planning a couple of years in advance - this is something that I've really found pays off in the long run,

Thanks,
Robert

The CCR is the right tool on every Dive, even when I know I am only going on a dive to 10m , it's still my preferred choice.

Why,

OC is noisy underwater, limited Air Supply, Heavy, and Requires more logistical support in the locations I am diving.

**Baron015** · August 13th, 2012, 11:12 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert)

you need to get up to the same level with CCR & OC, then choose the correct tool for the job

No thanks, I can just dive CCR all the time if I want.

I spent years diving OC trimix and good riddance I say.

Tb.

***Janos*** · August 14th, 2012, 08:17 PM

I do a lot of diving (this coming weekend is my first non-diving weekend since February!) and I mix CCR and OC with no problems.

Deep stuff is obviously CCR, and so is a lot of my club diving (30m range). Last weekend I did four dives in Swanage and it was nice to do all four on one scrubber fill and one set of cylinders. It can be more of a pain when I'm doing (say) a week in the Scillies and I have to take the scrubber off the boat every couple of days to change the lime back at where we're staying. There's also no O2 so I have to take my own too.

That said, there's is something really, really nice about diving a single cylinder configuration. When diving from the club rib I'm invariably on a single 15, and when teaching I'll often be on a single 10.

If you're ever feeling tired, knackered, and can't be faffed with all the hassle of getting on a boat, then try a dive on a single ten and you'll do handstands and cartwheels in full kit from your car to the boat.

While I've only done <500 hours on CC in my 6 years on the unit, it's still enough CC diving for me to have no problem swapping between OC and CC.

Janos

tufty · August 15th, 2012, 09:03 AM

I also jump from ccr to oc with no probs but I did spend my first season on ccr only on ccr (well mostly) :D

WFO · August 30th, 2012, 04:42 PM

It's something I've given a lot of thought to as I'm a fairly new diver (50 dives, of which 40 or so in sea, 10 or so being 40+m and deco). Probably massively early by most peoples standards, but it was an interest in CCR that made me learn to dive...

I can't afford, and if I could I don't think I could justify, the cost of going all the way to OC full trimix and building up a lot of experience before starting with CCRs.

Seems more logical to start with CCR now* to take over from the twinset and build up my skills in the sort of mostly recreational diving I end up doing and progress at whatever rate I fancy.

*Now being whenever I finish the homebuild, with the rate my projects go I may have 1000 dives by the time it is done!

GR7G5TER · August 30th, 2012, 08:35 PM

I had 200 dives under my belt before moving to CCR. About 120/80 split of single/twinset.

I went done the tech route purely as the wrecks i wanted to dive were deeper than 40m. After my first season out on the south coast dives boats I could see that the car guys were getting massively longer runs times than the oc guys. I made the decision then that i would move to car sooner rather than go thru to Normox and full trimix.

I'm very glad I've got the twinset training and experience that i have and it makes learning the theory on MOD 1 revision rather than start from new.

To re-iterate what one of the guys said, the diving I'm doing now is in preparation for the diving I'm planning in the future. The right tool for that diving is CCR in my opinion.

My view is that I'm a complete beginner again and the next few months will be spent in quarries practicing skills and getting buoyancy nailed on and some shallow no deco (obviously!) sea dives.

I want to do MOD 2 as soon as possible - to me that means as soon as I'm ready which is when I'm as comfortable diving the unit as i was on a twinset.

I'm hoping to get 50 hours on the unit by the end of this year and see how I'm feeling on the unit. At the moment I'm on 8 hours so a long way to go!!!

cardysnr · September 2nd, 2012, 05:05 PM

Recently did my IANTD CCR Normoxic Trimix........OC bailout from bottom to 6m, 3 gas switches.

Stress (no mask, OOA swim, Stage swap & Stage drop & pickup etc) & CCR skills, done neutrally buoyant before allowed to perform the OC bailout.

Isn't this a classic task loading issue vs solid dive motor skills (bouyancy etc); depends on how the individual can cope task loaded and still remain neutrally bouyant; i've taught divers with good bouyancy & dive skills that very quickly gone to rat sh*t when task loaded.

CCR instruction critical to ensure std(s) are met before cert is provided, OC experience shouldn't be an issue.

However solid OC experience can only help IMHO.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare)

Quick poll.

How many of you did a full (from the bottom to the surface) bailout on your MOD 1, 2 and 3 (if those qualifications done) and when was the last time you did one from depth as a practice?

Were critical skills completed on your training (1, 2 and 3) carried out neutrally buoyant?

Tiptopperoo · October 10th, 2012, 01:28 PM

I think there has been some excellent discussion in this thread, and after trawling through past posts I thought I'd add my perspective and make some comments on others posts.

My diving career has been leaps and bounds. I initially learned to dive on holiday, then barely dived for a year before doing my advanced open water course. A few months later I moved to Thailand and did my rescue to open water instructor courses over the space of about 3 months, with my 100th dive being the final dive of my instructor exam. Looking back now, I can't believe I was teaching people to dive with that little experience, but the other scary thing is that I remember thinking that few of the people who just passed the IDC/IE with me, I'd be happy teaching my family or friends to dive. I stayed in Thailand for the rest of that year and accumulated approx 500 dives.

I moved back to Melbourne and was blown away by all these twin tanks, harnesses DIR/GUE stuff, drysuits etc. There were plenty of wrecks to explore that were deeper than 30m and explore them I would so I did Advanced Nitrox. Unfortunately this was on a trip and I didn't complete the deco procedures course due to an interesting instructor and me wanting to spend more time with the mates I had gone on holiday to dive with. That was early 2009.

Throughout the rest of 09 and 10 I dived with my uni club doing wrecks on air down to about 45m, so by the time I did my deco procedures and extended range courses I had the best part of 200 dives on twins but not many with stages. 2011 I finished uni and finally started getting paid a solid salary so it was dive-o-rama. Stages, can lights and some cheeky trimix dives came next but I'd always had my eye on a JJ. I plan to do some seriously deep wrecks in the future and I always believed CCR was the way to do them.

So after approx 700 OC dives with my highest cert being TDI Extended Range (deep air) I did MOD 1 in Jan 2012 on the JJ and I now have about 40hrs on it. I did consider doing my trimix certs but couldn't really see the point when I wanted to be doing the mix appropriate dives on CCR. From where I'm at now I feel that:
1) I have made the switch at the right time for me
2) I need to diligently keep a realistic handle on my CCR abilities vs my OC abilities
3) I think that the wide variety of diving I have done, stands me in good stead to be a solid CCR diver and achieve my goals of deep dives in the future.

For anyone considering the switch to CCR, I believe they only need to be able to justify the need to themselves. I would query that need if they aren't going to dive it deep, but if they just want it for shallow photo/videography then who am I to say otherwise. As long as they are committed to a number of hours diving well below their previous OC level and bear in mind that they are back at the bottom of the experience chain and are prepared for numerous stuff ups during the climb back up the chain, they'll do fine.

The only OC diving I have done since completing MOD1 was teaching an AOW course the week after, so it's been approx 8 months since I dove OC. I'll be picking up the single tank again to teach this summer, but realistically, anything that needs a twinset, I'll take the JJ.

As far as my MOD1 course - in the pool we did skills on our knees (I still cringe thinking about the beating we gave that pool in the first session) in the ocean neutral. We did a bail out ascent at the end of one of the dives from about 15-20m or so. I did a bail out ascent from the same depth just the other week and it was pretty good - though I was a little light at my 5m stop and think I had some gas in the loop somewhere that I needed to vent.

I'm a big believer in that doing the course does not make you a good diver, it teaches you how the unit should be dived and can be dived safely. It is up to the student to put all these skills in to practice after the course in order to become competent on the unit.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

I switched to CCR only after having reached and dived at Advanced OC Trimix, so don't have any qualms about doing OC ascents from big depths... a couple of my buddies switched when they where at 50mtr qualified max, they found the first few training dives of Mod3 level rather "exciting", I'm still not sure how they'll feel if they bailout on a "small" bottle at 70mtrs.

I'm not sure I totally agree with how different an ascent is from 100m than 50m. (And I'll admit that I've never been past 60m so I could be completely wrong!) Surely if they have done the MOD3 course, they have done appropriate gas planning for a rock bottom bailout and deep bailout ascents. So the SHtF, they either bailout and begin an ascent, or they don't and they die. Same would happen at 40,50,60,100m...or have I missed something?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

IMVHO there is no such thing a "Recreational" CCR, if you don't need it for some of you diving then you don't need the added risk, I think a surprising number do it for bragging rights because its expensive and difficult (perceived)

I totally agree with this, and think it's outright negligible of training agencies to be attempting to convince people otherwise.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare)

I'll leave you with one question though - how many divers have you come across who think that their skills are poor? Most of the students I taught came to the class thinking that they were ok - and many of these had higher level technical qualifications.

Surely the fact that they are coming to your classes means that they have acknowledged the need to improve?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare)

Student on twinset. Came to class ART qualified - so one stage and 40 meters or so. Unable to ascend with stops whilst reeling in SMB. Lost it and required instructor intervention to avoid surface not once but twice. Following month - student passed MOD 1 and was quickly using unit for deco due to ART cert.

Agreed that is worrying. However perhaps they practised like buggery and nailed MOD1? Perhaps the grilling you gave them enabled them to improve their skills to a competent level?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare)

Mod 3 CCR diver, reverted to OC for training. Unable to make stops whilst sharing gas. Instructor intervention required to avoid buoyant ascent.

Do you even do a gas sharing ascent on MOD3?
How useful and practical is a gas sharing ascent?
I agree that it is a good task loading exercise, but it is waaaay down my list of preferred ascent strategies due to a lost gas scenario.
All these hardcore techy classes are so big on task loading students. Surely it is better to teach a skill under no pressure and ensure that it is mastered in a low stress environment before task loading and adding the stress of failure. Learning a skill on day 1 and then completing it under stress on day 2 does not mean it will be retained better 6 months later. In fact I'm fairly sure that skill retention has been proven to be better following low stress competency based learning than high stress exam style learning.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare)

Photos on internet of CCR divers being trained on a MOD 3 course whilst kneeling down. I taught all skills neutrally buoyant. Other instructors suggest that for new divers skills need to be taught negatively buoyant to be safe. On MOD 3 ffs???!!!!

Also agreed. If you can't do it neutral after that many hours, then you probably shouldn't be doing it at all.

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

I think a lot of OC experience is good. I don't know that there is much that is transferable but being able to keep your head and just have some underwater common sense is worth the effort to gain. I suppose you could do that on CCR but it isn't exactly forgiving and bailing out isn't the time to find out you aren't comfortable. Anyone can dive a working unit. <snip>

I think that sometimes those people who advocate going to CCR early forget/under rate the hours they have spent diving OC. Although nothing equates to practising proper drills and skills, I believe a significant amount of comfort is gained simply by being underwater. I am a PADI OWSI (don't shoot) and know from experience that it is approx 1 million times easier to teach someone to dive, who can already swim and has a level of comfort in water.

That being said, those who spent 15+ years regularly diving OC cannot expect that to be the benchmark for all those wanting to dive CCR.

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

I doubt a head full of CO2 cares about whether you were good on OC or not, it's a great leveller.a

Agreed. CO2 scares me the most, and I doubt many people could do anything nicely underwater once they become acidotic!

August 10th, 2012, 08:11 AM	#101
Robert New Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 24 Thanks: 23 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bingo. Once the tools are each mastered, bring the right one out for the days task at hand. OC = Simple and task load lowering. A pleasure to dive in the common caves that most of us really dive most of the time. Did three weeks in Florida last year, dove every day, dove OC, and the workload reduction all in all was well worth the change. But with that said, CCR proficiency for the big dives needs to be obtained with loads of experience on small dives, so.... this season: It's CC to the caves. Not because it's needed in 2012, it's because of 2014. Dave . " Dave . Agree with this about 1000%, also with a later comment Dave made that you need to get up to the same level with CCR & OC, then choose the correct tool for the job. At the end of the day CCR/OC backmount/OC sidemount/OC Single/stages etc is a toolkit and you need to use what works on a given day. There's also the issue of planning a couple of years in advance - this is something that I've really found pays off in the long run, Thanks, Robert
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August 10th, 2012, 12:21 PM	#102 (permalink)
lizardland New Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: North Posts: 273 Thanks: 81 Thanked 106 Times in 36 Posts	My twinset is my air bank so I'd have it anyway. Selling my backplate and wing wouldnt raise enough money to compensate for the stupid questions from an ad on YD. I swap all the time, I've even had people comment they dont believe I own a rebreather as they've never seen me use it I've never really found swapping between the two much of a challenge but then I might set the bar low :D Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk __________________ Jesus don't want me for a sunbeam
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August 10th, 2012, 09:28 PM	#103 (permalink)
Venomguy New Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: PNG Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert) Agree with this about 1000%, also with a later comment Dave made that you need to get up to the same level with CCR & OC, then choose the correct tool for the job. At the end of the day CCR/OC backmount/OC sidemount/OC Single/stages etc is a toolkit and you need to use what works on a given day. There's also the issue of planning a couple of years in advance - this is something that I've really found pays off in the long run, Thanks, Robert The CCR is the right tool on every Dive, even when I know I am only going on a dive to 10m , it's still my preferred choice. Why, OC is noisy underwater, limited Air Supply, Heavy, and Requires more logistical support in the locations I am diving.
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August 13th, 2012, 11:12 AM	#104 (permalink)
Baron015 CCRX Supporter Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: London Posts: 116 Thanks: 28 Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts	Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert) you need to get up to the same level with CCR & OC, then choose the correct tool for the job No thanks, I can just dive CCR all the time if I want. I spent years diving OC trimix and good riddance I say. Tb.
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August 14th, 2012, 08:17 PM	#105 (permalink)
*Janos* "Two sheds" Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Work in Westminster, live in Surrey Posts: 334 Thanks: 0 Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts	I do a lot of diving (this coming weekend is my first non-diving weekend since February!) and I mix CCR and OC with no problems. Deep stuff is obviously CCR, and so is a lot of my club diving (30m range). Last weekend I did four dives in Swanage and it was nice to do all four on one scrubber fill and one set of cylinders. It can be more of a pain when I'm doing (say) a week in the Scillies and I have to take the scrubber off the boat every couple of days to change the lime back at where we're staying. There's also no O2 so I have to take my own too. That said, there's is something really, really nice about diving a single cylinder configuration. When diving from the club rib I'm invariably on a single 15, and when teaching I'll often be on a single 10. If you're ever feeling tired, knackered, and can't be faffed with all the hassle of getting on a boat, then try a dive on a single ten and you'll do handstands and cartwheels in full kit from your car to the boat. While I've only done <500 hours on CC in my 6 years on the unit, it's still enough CC diving for me to have no problem swapping between OC and CC. Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves Hellfins - a friendly London dive club My music video: Dive the UK, cos that's the way it is. Huh!
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August 15th, 2012, 09:03 AM	#106 (permalink)
tufty New Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: bridport Posts: 59 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I also jump from ccr to oc with no probs but I did spend my first season on ccr only on ccr (well mostly) :D
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August 30th, 2012, 04:42 PM	#107 (permalink)
WFO New Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Yorkshire, UK Posts: 240 Thanks: 27 Thanked 31 Times in 22 Posts	It's something I've given a lot of thought to as I'm a fairly new diver (50 dives, of which 40 or so in sea, 10 or so being 40+m and deco). Probably massively early by most peoples standards, but it was an interest in CCR that made me learn to dive... I can't afford, and if I could I don't think I could justify, the cost of going all the way to OC full trimix and building up a lot of experience before starting with CCRs. Seems more logical to start with CCR now* to take over from the twinset and build up my skills in the sort of mostly recreational diving I end up doing and progress at whatever rate I fancy. *Now being whenever I finish the homebuild, with the rate my projects go I may have 1000 dives by the time it is done!
(Offline)

August 30th, 2012, 08:35 PM	#108 (permalink)
GR7G5TER New Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Too far from the sea Posts: 59 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I had 200 dives under my belt before moving to CCR. About 120/80 split of single/twinset. I went done the tech route purely as the wrecks i wanted to dive were deeper than 40m. After my first season out on the south coast dives boats I could see that the car guys were getting massively longer runs times than the oc guys. I made the decision then that i would move to car sooner rather than go thru to Normox and full trimix. I'm very glad I've got the twinset training and experience that i have and it makes learning the theory on MOD 1 revision rather than start from new. To re-iterate what one of the guys said, the diving I'm doing now is in preparation for the diving I'm planning in the future. The right tool for that diving is CCR in my opinion. My view is that I'm a complete beginner again and the next few months will be spent in quarries practicing skills and getting buoyancy nailed on and some shallow no deco (obviously!) sea dives. I want to do MOD 2 as soon as possible - to me that means as soon as I'm ready which is when I'm as comfortable diving the unit as i was on a twinset. I'm hoping to get 50 hours on the unit by the end of this year and see how I'm feeling on the unit. At the moment I'm on 8 hours so a long way to go!!!
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September 2nd, 2012, 05:05 PM	#109 (permalink)
cardysnr David Carden Join Date: May 2012 Location: Eastbourne UK Posts: 77 Thanks: 54 Thanked 29 Times in 12 Posts	Recently did my IANTD CCR Normoxic Trimix........OC bailout from bottom to 6m, 3 gas switches. Stress (no mask, OOA swim, Stage swap & Stage drop & pickup etc) & CCR skills, done neutrally buoyant before allowed to perform the OC bailout. Isn't this a classic task loading issue vs solid dive motor skills (bouyancy etc); depends on how the individual can cope task loaded and still remain neutrally bouyant; i've taught divers with good bouyancy & dive skills that very quickly gone to rat sht when task loaded. CCR instruction critical to ensure std(s) are met before cert is provided, OC experience shouldn't be an issue. However solid OC experience can only help IMHO. Quote:* (Originally Posted by Clare) Quick poll. How many of you did a full (from the bottom to the surface) bailout on your MOD 1, 2 and 3 (if those qualifications done) and when was the last time you did one from depth as a practice? Were critical skills completed on your training (1, 2 and 3) carried out neutrally buoyant?
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October 10th, 2012, 01:28 PM	#110 (permalink)
Tiptopperoo CCRx Supporter Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Melbourne Posts: 98 Thanks: 21 Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts	I think there has been some excellent discussion in this thread, and after trawling through past posts I thought I'd add my perspective and make some comments on others posts. My diving career has been leaps and bounds. I initially learned to dive on holiday, then barely dived for a year before doing my advanced open water course. A few months later I moved to Thailand and did my rescue to open water instructor courses over the space of about 3 months, with my 100th dive being the final dive of my instructor exam. Looking back now, I can't believe I was teaching people to dive with that little experience, but the other scary thing is that I remember thinking that few of the people who just passed the IDC/IE with me, I'd be happy teaching my family or friends to dive. I stayed in Thailand for the rest of that year and accumulated approx 500 dives. I moved back to Melbourne and was blown away by all these twin tanks, harnesses DIR/GUE stuff, drysuits etc. There were plenty of wrecks to explore that were deeper than 30m and explore them I would so I did Advanced Nitrox. Unfortunately this was on a trip and I didn't complete the deco procedures course due to an interesting instructor and me wanting to spend more time with the mates I had gone on holiday to dive with. That was early 2009. Throughout the rest of 09 and 10 I dived with my uni club doing wrecks on air down to about 45m, so by the time I did my deco procedures and extended range courses I had the best part of 200 dives on twins but not many with stages. 2011 I finished uni and finally started getting paid a solid salary so it was dive-o-rama. Stages, can lights and some cheeky trimix dives came next but I'd always had my eye on a JJ. I plan to do some seriously deep wrecks in the future and I always believed CCR was the way to do them. So after approx 700 OC dives with my highest cert being TDI Extended Range (deep air) I did MOD 1 in Jan 2012 on the JJ and I now have about 40hrs on it. I did consider doing my trimix certs but couldn't really see the point when I wanted to be doing the mix appropriate dives on CCR. From where I'm at now I feel that: 1) I have made the switch at the right time for me 2) I need to diligently keep a realistic handle on my CCR abilities vs my OC abilities 3) I think that the wide variety of diving I have done, stands me in good stead to be a solid CCR diver and achieve my goals of deep dives in the future. For anyone considering the switch to CCR, I believe they only need to be able to justify the need to themselves. I would query that need if they aren't going to dive it deep, but if they just want it for shallow photo/videography then who am I to say otherwise. As long as they are committed to a number of hours diving well below their previous OC level and bear in mind that they are back at the bottom of the experience chain and are prepared for numerous stuff ups during the climb back up the chain, they'll do fine. The only OC diving I have done since completing MOD1 was teaching an AOW course the week after, so it's been approx 8 months since I dove OC. I'll be picking up the single tank again to teach this summer, but realistically, anything that needs a twinset, I'll take the JJ. As far as my MOD1 course - in the pool we did skills on our knees (I still cringe thinking about the beating we gave that pool in the first session) in the ocean neutral. We did a bail out ascent at the end of one of the dives from about 15-20m or so. I did a bail out ascent from the same depth just the other week and it was pretty good - though I was a little light at my 5m stop and think I had some gas in the loop somewhere that I needed to vent. I'm a big believer in that doing the course does not make you a good diver, it teaches you how the unit should be dived and can be dived safely. It is up to the student to put all these skills in to practice after the course in order to become competent on the unit. Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) I switched to CCR only after having reached and dived at Advanced OC Trimix, so don't have any qualms about doing OC ascents from big depths... a couple of my buddies switched when they where at 50mtr qualified max, they found the first few training dives of Mod3 level rather "exciting", I'm still not sure how they'll feel if they bailout on a "small" bottle at 70mtrs. I'm not sure I totally agree with how different an ascent is from 100m than 50m. (And I'll admit that I've never been past 60m so I could be completely wrong!) Surely if they have done the MOD3 course, they have done appropriate gas planning for a rock bottom bailout and deep bailout ascents. So the SHtF, they either bailout and begin an ascent, or they don't and they die. Same would happen at 40,50,60,100m...or have I missed something? Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) IMVHO there is no such thing a "Recreational" CCR, if you don't need it for some of you diving then you don't need the added risk, I think a surprising number do it for bragging rights because its expensive and difficult (perceived) I totally agree with this, and think it's outright negligible of training agencies to be attempting to convince people otherwise. Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare) I'll leave you with one question though - how many divers have you come across who think that their skills are poor? Most of the students I taught came to the class thinking that they were ok - and many of these had higher level technical qualifications. Surely the fact that they are coming to your classes means that they have acknowledged the need to improve? Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare) Student on twinset. Came to class ART qualified - so one stage and 40 meters or so. Unable to ascend with stops whilst reeling in SMB. Lost it and required instructor intervention to avoid surface not once but twice. Following month - student passed MOD 1 and was quickly using unit for deco due to ART cert. Agreed that is worrying. However perhaps they practised like buggery and nailed MOD1? Perhaps the grilling you gave them enabled them to improve their skills to a competent level? Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare) Mod 3 CCR diver, reverted to OC for training. Unable to make stops whilst sharing gas. Instructor intervention required to avoid buoyant ascent. Do you even do a gas sharing ascent on MOD3? How useful and practical is a gas sharing ascent? I agree that it is a good task loading exercise, but it is waaaay down my list of preferred ascent strategies due to a lost gas scenario. All these hardcore techy classes are so big on task loading students. Surely it is better to teach a skill under no pressure and ensure that it is mastered in a low stress environment before task loading and adding the stress of failure. Learning a skill on day 1 and then completing it under stress on day 2 does not mean it will be retained better 6 months later. In fact I'm fairly sure that skill retention has been proven to be better following low stress competency based learning than high stress exam style learning. Quote: (Originally Posted by Clare) Photos on internet of CCR divers being trained on a MOD 3 course whilst kneeling down. I taught all skills neutrally buoyant. Other instructors suggest that for new divers skills need to be taught negatively buoyant to be safe. On MOD 3 ffs???!!!! Also agreed. If you can't do it neutral after that many hours, then you probably shouldn't be doing it at all. Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) I think a lot of OC experience is good. I don't know that there is much that is transferable but being able to keep your head and just have some underwater common sense is worth the effort to gain. I suppose you could do that on CCR but it isn't exactly forgiving and bailing out isn't the time to find out you aren't comfortable. Anyone can dive a working unit. <snip> I think that sometimes those people who advocate going to CCR early forget/under rate the hours they have spent diving OC. Although nothing equates to practising proper drills and skills, I believe a significant amount of comfort is gained simply by being underwater. I am a PADI OWSI (don't shoot) and know from experience that it is approx 1 million times easier to teach someone to dive, who can already swim and has a level of comfort in water. That being said, those who spent 15+ years regularly diving OC cannot expect that to be the benchmark for all those wanting to dive CCR. Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) I doubt a head full of CO2 cares about whether you were good on OC or not, it's a great leveller.a Agreed. CO2 scares me the most, and I doubt many people could do anything nicely underwater once they become acidotic!
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